On the average salary of grads ten years after college ($102K Columbia; $59K Alabama), if you assume a significant number of Ivy grads work in NYC and most 'Bama grads work in Alabama, the financial advantage might go to the Crimson Tide. Average cost of living in NYC is 89.9% higher than in Alabama, including average rent of a small apartment. Probably a better life and a bigger apartment or even a house in Alabama for $60K a year than what you can get in the Big Apple for $100K a year.
This is partially true but the other element that’s missing here is that Ivy students tend to have jobs at firms with exponential income prospects. So an Ivy employee who is earning $100k at age 30 might be earning $600k by age 50, versus the sorts of jobs that Bama graduates secure on average will keep them in roughly the same range they started in—that is to say, the numbers will more greatly diverge later in life, which is part of the perceived value of the Ivies.
I'm a double Ivy, whose father and brother both graduated Ivy, and, if I had to do it again, I would not send my child to college, period. Certainly, never to an Ivy. The mental and psychological abuse masquerading as education, which leads to disastrous mindsets in the most difficult decade (one's 20s), combined with the inordinate debt, makes the life of young people a prison sentence that can last an entire lifetime.
I think the good state schools are where most people should go. You will get a great education at a university with great professors and still have a good alumni network to help career prospects.
It’s slightly worse, but I think that’s more a function of size than anything else. The bigger the school, the larger the chance you get at least a handful of sane students. Take any small liberal arts school, and it can be worse than the Ivies in many cases.
I think that what the Ivies gave their students was far different in the past, both far past and near past. In the far past , the people who went to the Ivies were the sons (and, more rarely, daughters) of the elite. They got their positions from family and family friends, and the education was not crucial. Then, over time, the Ivies did provide great education, and the graduates were well prepared. Starting in the 60s , there was a shift, partly because of the Vietnam war. Colleges protected students from the draft. So, ROI which should be most convincing over time, does not measure the same path as it once did.
The Ivies open some doors, but after a first job, I don’t think it much matters.
Those who grew up in the DC-Boston area, go to the Ivies, and get hired in the same region have higher incomes in part because that’s an expensive area in which to live.
Nice house in Knoxville - 2,000+ sq ft, 8000 sq ft lot costs 500,000 Similar house in Lexington MA 1,000,000 Silver Spring MD 700,000 HOboken NJ 2,000,000.
Liza, you did mention your success and the social ambition aspect benefits of an Ivy League education. But the big thing for us non Ivy League folks, (and the contrast of your Gatsby example) is that your rigorous, excellent education helped you to reach a higher level of thought that enabled you to write really well out of the gate and get thousands of subscribers. That is the tragedy of woke to keep everyone in miserable ignorance and be smart and do well is such a sin. And the tragedy is that so many people accept this morally right and actually helpful rather than harmful. But your example and your writing encourage us to reach a little higher when we write. Take extra effort and work hard at writing well.
I discovered this when I went to college 40 yrs ago. The best thing that happened to me was that I went to a small Dominican college that was incredibly rigorous. I didn’t know it but I was doing grad level work as an undergrad. I got accepted by tony DC schools but they weren’t offering scholarships to poor white trash boys that year. I got an excellent education but no Greek letters, smoozing with name profs, or students, which to be honest never had an appeal to me…
If the primary benefit being derived from the Ivy League education is formation for entrepreneurism and achievement, do you think young people who DON'T attend an Ivy might approximate the experience by things like participation with their local Chamber of Commerce?
Even in the little town where I live, we have a guy who started mowing lawns in 7th grade with a push-mower, and has built that into his own local landscaping business with multiple employees and even held local elected office. I realize that's not starting Tesla...but it ain't "nuthin'" either.
I m no Liza, I belong to the generation of her parents who hauled from the USSR. I live among Soviet immigrants in the Silicon Valley. I personally know dozens of people who graduated from simple Soviet schools and Universities; immigrated to the States, came to the Valley in the 1970s-1990s and founded successful companies or joined serious tech players. My husband is one of them. All is possible, though Silicon Valley does have its own unique spirit of risk and adventure that attracts a certain breed of people (at least it used to). But the inner circle the Ivy people retain is belonging to a certain inner culture. Which has little to do with being an erudite, a polyglot and a polymath.
On the average salary of grads ten years after college ($102K Columbia; $59K Alabama), if you assume a significant number of Ivy grads work in NYC and most 'Bama grads work in Alabama, the financial advantage might go to the Crimson Tide. Average cost of living in NYC is 89.9% higher than in Alabama, including average rent of a small apartment. Probably a better life and a bigger apartment or even a house in Alabama for $60K a year than what you can get in the Big Apple for $100K a year.
This is partially true but the other element that’s missing here is that Ivy students tend to have jobs at firms with exponential income prospects. So an Ivy employee who is earning $100k at age 30 might be earning $600k by age 50, versus the sorts of jobs that Bama graduates secure on average will keep them in roughly the same range they started in—that is to say, the numbers will more greatly diverge later in life, which is part of the perceived value of the Ivies.
True.
I'm a double Ivy, whose father and brother both graduated Ivy, and, if I had to do it again, I would not send my child to college, period. Certainly, never to an Ivy. The mental and psychological abuse masquerading as education, which leads to disastrous mindsets in the most difficult decade (one's 20s), combined with the inordinate debt, makes the life of young people a prison sentence that can last an entire lifetime.
I think the good state schools are where most people should go. You will get a great education at a university with great professors and still have a good alumni network to help career prospects.
Liza, interesting. I have one question, though: Is the political climate at the Ivies more depraved than it is at public colleges and universities?
Sometime I think the focus on school spirit and athletics gives students at state schools a more wholesome outlet for their adolescent enthusiasm.
It’s slightly worse, but I think that’s more a function of size than anything else. The bigger the school, the larger the chance you get at least a handful of sane students. Take any small liberal arts school, and it can be worse than the Ivies in many cases.
Interesting, thanks.
Have you read Ross Douthat's first book on this? It's 20 years old but the issues are still there: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/ross-gregory-douthat/privilege/9781401307554/
I think that what the Ivies gave their students was far different in the past, both far past and near past. In the far past , the people who went to the Ivies were the sons (and, more rarely, daughters) of the elite. They got their positions from family and family friends, and the education was not crucial. Then, over time, the Ivies did provide great education, and the graduates were well prepared. Starting in the 60s , there was a shift, partly because of the Vietnam war. Colleges protected students from the draft. So, ROI which should be most convincing over time, does not measure the same path as it once did.
The Ivies open some doors, but after a first job, I don’t think it much matters.
Those who grew up in the DC-Boston area, go to the Ivies, and get hired in the same region have higher incomes in part because that’s an expensive area in which to live.
Nice house in Knoxville - 2,000+ sq ft, 8000 sq ft lot costs 500,000 Similar house in Lexington MA 1,000,000 Silver Spring MD 700,000 HOboken NJ 2,000,000.
Good point about housing.
Liza, you did mention your success and the social ambition aspect benefits of an Ivy League education. But the big thing for us non Ivy League folks, (and the contrast of your Gatsby example) is that your rigorous, excellent education helped you to reach a higher level of thought that enabled you to write really well out of the gate and get thousands of subscribers. That is the tragedy of woke to keep everyone in miserable ignorance and be smart and do well is such a sin. And the tragedy is that so many people accept this morally right and actually helpful rather than harmful. But your example and your writing encourage us to reach a little higher when we write. Take extra effort and work hard at writing well.
I discovered this when I went to college 40 yrs ago. The best thing that happened to me was that I went to a small Dominican college that was incredibly rigorous. I didn’t know it but I was doing grad level work as an undergrad. I got accepted by tony DC schools but they weren’t offering scholarships to poor white trash boys that year. I got an excellent education but no Greek letters, smoozing with name profs, or students, which to be honest never had an appeal to me…
You will learn luxury beliefs! Be careful of what you wish for 😎
Liza,
I agree with you. It's not fair but it's true. In my experience, parents who an afford private school go for it.
Best,
David
Another fascinating piece, Liza. Thanks!
If the primary benefit being derived from the Ivy League education is formation for entrepreneurism and achievement, do you think young people who DON'T attend an Ivy might approximate the experience by things like participation with their local Chamber of Commerce?
Even in the little town where I live, we have a guy who started mowing lawns in 7th grade with a push-mower, and has built that into his own local landscaping business with multiple employees and even held local elected office. I realize that's not starting Tesla...but it ain't "nuthin'" either.
I m no Liza, I belong to the generation of her parents who hauled from the USSR. I live among Soviet immigrants in the Silicon Valley. I personally know dozens of people who graduated from simple Soviet schools and Universities; immigrated to the States, came to the Valley in the 1970s-1990s and founded successful companies or joined serious tech players. My husband is one of them. All is possible, though Silicon Valley does have its own unique spirit of risk and adventure that attracts a certain breed of people (at least it used to). But the inner circle the Ivy people retain is belonging to a certain inner culture. Which has little to do with being an erudite, a polyglot and a polymath.
What Chicago private school did you attend?
Not the Latino academy I hope 🤔
Excellent. I graduated from Bard College before it became better known, and it had no name recognition with employers.