These sound less like literary fiction than like standard commercial fiction -- CEOs, pop stars. corporate milieus, "young professionals," secrets, ambition. debuts at Carnegie Hall... The plots are overheated and the characters largely types. These pitches don't make me want to read any of them.
I had a very similar reaction. The only one that peaked my interest was the last one. I, however, think the women I know who read would be more interested based on the synopsis if her novels.
I appreciate the candor, but I disagree. The first character, Cassandra, sounds as if she has made herself into a cardboard character of commercial fiction for her emotional safety and ambitions, but there’s a chance she will grow into being someone real. Yes, there’s melodrama in the plotting, but I find the concept compelling and realistic. If you subtract the “chance” part, you’ll see people like Cassandra everywhere you look, especially behind the Presidential podium on the White House lawn.
"If you subtract the “chance” part, you’ll see people like Cassandra everywhere you look, especially behind the Presidential podium on the White House lawn." I sincerely doubt this was Ms. Libes intention.
Yes, the diction, syntax, and use of metaphoric language certainly distinguish literary fiction from commercial. But even more than the language, which can dazzle (Melville, Fitzgerald, Nabokov, Woolf), it's the characters in literary fiction that compel us (Ahab, Humbert, Gatsby, Clarissa Dalloway). They seem freshly minted -- perhaps vaguely resembling people we know, but so well-individuated that they seem utterly new. We have met ardent and persistent lovers, but we have never met Jay Gatsby. Think of the scene in which he tries to impress Daisy (and does!) by showing her his shirts; think of how morally compromised his backstory is.
The characters of commercial fiction, in comparison, are two-dimensional; they cast no shadows. They are utterly familiar to us because we have seen them so many times and because they are human "types." And as for plots -- commercial novelists bring the liquid to a boil and try to keep it there.
It is obviously possible to use the very same plot (of which there are really only two -- a stranger comes to town; and a character goes on a journey) in both commercial and literary fiction. It's primary in the former and secondary in the latter.
Which is in no way to disparage commercial fiction -- the best writers of that genre are wizards who keep us enthralled from first page to last. Think of Elmore Leonard or Stephen King (both of whom could also be considered literary.)i
I think part of the problem these days is that, with the degradation of literary culture, most of the novels published and trumpeted as "literary" are really commercial. It;'s not just Colleen Hoover who writes commercial fiction; it's also Sally Rooney.
How could the current morass be otherwise when marketing departments overrule editorial departments and editorial departments are stuffed with people who wouldn't know a literary novel if it bit them?
Liza, so glad you shared all this! Please do not self-publish; as you probably know, that doesn't really work so well for literary fiction and throws 100% of the marketing burden (and all expenses) on your shoulders. Have you reached out to the agents who are especially interested in Jewish-themed fiction (and I think that can be broadly defined)? There are several good ones; some in the U.S., some in Israel. If you haven't already, I would pitch a couple of them and be explicit about how Jewish themes are present in the story. You might also do some reverse-engineering research to figure out which agents represent fiction authors published by Schocken Books (a Knopf Doubleday imprint), which publishes a lot of literary fiction, including some specifically around Jewish themes. Happy to discuss further.
I think at this point she’s written so much about how bad publishing that’s kind of her brand!
Besides, as she’s said elsewhere her beliefs and politics are significantly contrary to the publishing industry’s most cherished values. It’s not just about being Jewish, it’s about being a young conservative Jewish women when most young Jewish women (and men!) are on the left. That’s harder because literary publishing doesn’t like conservatives, but most conservative houses don’t want literary fiction by young women or really, any fiction at all. There are places that publish explicitly Christian fiction but she’s obviously not that. So…I’m not in the industry but I see where she’s coming from.
The Lilac Room and The Leverkuhn Quartet appeal to me. As an 80-year-old retired professor who happens to be Christian, I’m not at the center of the demographic group most likely to be attracted to your novels. But I so value your writings on Substack that I would like to read your fiction. It is so reassuring that a person who experienced the corrupt world of modern higher education in the humanities has taken on the mission of making the case for great literature. And now you are making your own contribution by writing books that explore the most profound questions of human existence. I admire you and wish you great success.
You already have a significant reader base with your Substack readers and subscribers. So you could probably sell a lot of self-published books or find a reputable literary agent with time. Based on what you've already accomplished, it will happen. So the most important thing is to succeed on your own terms which is incredibly rough in these times but doable. Just takes so much more time and effort than it should. And most everyone wants you to be gain representation by a quality literary agent.
Liza, as recently as 10th August, you were discussing the case of Allan Levi's novel 'Theo of Golden', which has sold over 2.5 million copies having been originally self-published:
Stop pleading with publishing agents who are totally indifferent or even openly hostile to literary fiction.
Instead, self-publish...!
Self-publishing is now much easier and cheaper than in the past, thanks to the internet and advances in short-run printing technology providing 'print-on-demand'.
I think Allan Levi used Amazon's Kindle Direct self-publishing service:
Personally, I'm more familiar with Lulu self-publishing through which I have bought a few e-books and printed paper books including one of the excellent Moroccan history books by Comer Plummer (a former Middle East and North Africa Foreign Area Officer in the US Army). This is an excellent, thoroughly researched and clearly referenced history book. It's superior to many books published by 'respectable' academic publishers:
These do sound very interesting. I self-published a lot of books in my twenties and am looking to pursue traditional publishing in my thirties. Best of luck with however you choose to proceed.
I am continually shocked that you cannot get an agent. Your growth alone should easily sell them. You are far from alone, of course. But on Substack you kinda lead the pack. What agents think sells usually sell under 5,000 copies so what do they know. They need to take more risks!! But also: You're doin your own thing DIY-style. And you're growing big time, almost 200K on insta and over 11k here. You're already a star ⭐️ 😎
Some sort of a deep algorithmic voodoo magic the up your YouTube channel on to my big screen smart TV screen. Imagine my happy surprise. Now I have more ways to enjoy your wonderful takes.
I would like to just raise my hand that I entered the self-publishing game as a (non-leftist) literary fiction author in 2016. I started out with as much rage against the publishing world as you when I graduated college, but rather than wait for the culture to change, I changed my tactics. I think self-publishing is the way to go and let capitalism, and the individuals in it, spread your books by word of mouth.
I would never describe Kafka as slow, or introspective. Kafka's characters are wonderfully shallow and magnificently baffled. Kafka rages against introspection, which deficit is always used against his protagonists.
For those struggling with Kafka, I suggest working outwards from 'The Burrow', and its ketamine-hole inability to settle on a single decisive thought before another intrudes.
Where is the resolution or the redemption in the lilac room? Looks like a bunch of typical self-centered characters, completely ungodly and lost, stupid people, I hope there’s some kind of red redemption, an awakening, maybe one of them should realize that having biblical principles in life has been the only way we’ve ever seen healthy communities thrive in the history of the world ? People who live outside those principles cause nothing but destruction, divorce, abortion, addiction, greed hatred, jealousy vengeance spitefulness, that’s what liberalism gave us in the 70s, the absence of God in our lives.
These sound less like literary fiction than like standard commercial fiction -- CEOs, pop stars. corporate milieus, "young professionals," secrets, ambition. debuts at Carnegie Hall... The plots are overheated and the characters largely types. These pitches don't make me want to read any of them.
I had a very similar reaction. The only one that peaked my interest was the last one. I, however, think the women I know who read would be more interested based on the synopsis if her novels.
Thanks for your agreement (but make that "piqued.")
I appreciate the candor, but I disagree. The first character, Cassandra, sounds as if she has made herself into a cardboard character of commercial fiction for her emotional safety and ambitions, but there’s a chance she will grow into being someone real. Yes, there’s melodrama in the plotting, but I find the concept compelling and realistic. If you subtract the “chance” part, you’ll see people like Cassandra everywhere you look, especially behind the Presidential podium on the White House lawn.
"If you subtract the “chance” part, you’ll see people like Cassandra everywhere you look, especially behind the Presidential podium on the White House lawn." I sincerely doubt this was Ms. Libes intention.
Does literary fiction have different plots than commercial? My understanding is the distinction is the language/execution
Yes, the diction, syntax, and use of metaphoric language certainly distinguish literary fiction from commercial. But even more than the language, which can dazzle (Melville, Fitzgerald, Nabokov, Woolf), it's the characters in literary fiction that compel us (Ahab, Humbert, Gatsby, Clarissa Dalloway). They seem freshly minted -- perhaps vaguely resembling people we know, but so well-individuated that they seem utterly new. We have met ardent and persistent lovers, but we have never met Jay Gatsby. Think of the scene in which he tries to impress Daisy (and does!) by showing her his shirts; think of how morally compromised his backstory is.
The characters of commercial fiction, in comparison, are two-dimensional; they cast no shadows. They are utterly familiar to us because we have seen them so many times and because they are human "types." And as for plots -- commercial novelists bring the liquid to a boil and try to keep it there.
It is obviously possible to use the very same plot (of which there are really only two -- a stranger comes to town; and a character goes on a journey) in both commercial and literary fiction. It's primary in the former and secondary in the latter.
Which is in no way to disparage commercial fiction -- the best writers of that genre are wizards who keep us enthralled from first page to last. Think of Elmore Leonard or Stephen King (both of whom could also be considered literary.)i
I think part of the problem these days is that, with the degradation of literary culture, most of the novels published and trumpeted as "literary" are really commercial. It;'s not just Colleen Hoover who writes commercial fiction; it's also Sally Rooney.
How could the current morass be otherwise when marketing departments overrule editorial departments and editorial departments are stuffed with people who wouldn't know a literary novel if it bit them?
Thanks for the detailed explanation. I learned a lot from you. Yeah I read normal people or whatever it's called and thought it was nothing special.
Forget agents. Forget trad. Publish yourself. Never a better time.
Couldn’t you self publish on Amazon? Isn’t that what Andy Weir did?
Andy weir published the Martian FOR FREE on his blog, then an e book on Amazon for $0.99! The rest, they say, is history.
Liza, so glad you shared all this! Please do not self-publish; as you probably know, that doesn't really work so well for literary fiction and throws 100% of the marketing burden (and all expenses) on your shoulders. Have you reached out to the agents who are especially interested in Jewish-themed fiction (and I think that can be broadly defined)? There are several good ones; some in the U.S., some in Israel. If you haven't already, I would pitch a couple of them and be explicit about how Jewish themes are present in the story. You might also do some reverse-engineering research to figure out which agents represent fiction authors published by Schocken Books (a Knopf Doubleday imprint), which publishes a lot of literary fiction, including some specifically around Jewish themes. Happy to discuss further.
I think at this point she’s written so much about how bad publishing that’s kind of her brand!
Besides, as she’s said elsewhere her beliefs and politics are significantly contrary to the publishing industry’s most cherished values. It’s not just about being Jewish, it’s about being a young conservative Jewish women when most young Jewish women (and men!) are on the left. That’s harder because literary publishing doesn’t like conservatives, but most conservative houses don’t want literary fiction by young women or really, any fiction at all. There are places that publish explicitly Christian fiction but she’s obviously not that. So…I’m not in the industry but I see where she’s coming from.
Cake and eat it too. Why do you lust after legacy publication when your site is devoted to dissing it?
Liza,
The Lilac Room and The Leverkuhn Quartet appeal to me. As an 80-year-old retired professor who happens to be Christian, I’m not at the center of the demographic group most likely to be attracted to your novels. But I so value your writings on Substack that I would like to read your fiction. It is so reassuring that a person who experienced the corrupt world of modern higher education in the humanities has taken on the mission of making the case for great literature. And now you are making your own contribution by writing books that explore the most profound questions of human existence. I admire you and wish you great success.
You already have a significant reader base with your Substack readers and subscribers. So you could probably sell a lot of self-published books or find a reputable literary agent with time. Based on what you've already accomplished, it will happen. So the most important thing is to succeed on your own terms which is incredibly rough in these times but doable. Just takes so much more time and effort than it should. And most everyone wants you to be gain representation by a quality literary agent.
Leverkühn Quartet. For my daughter who's a cellist.
And I agree with others here: yes Andy Weir tickles our inner Horatio Alger fantasies, but self-publishing is still a very bad idea.
Liza, as recently as 10th August, you were discussing the case of Allan Levi's novel 'Theo of Golden', which has sold over 2.5 million copies having been originally self-published:
https://www.pensandpoison.org/p/the-publishing-industry-stopped-believing?lli=1
I think you should follow his example:
Stop pleading with publishing agents who are totally indifferent or even openly hostile to literary fiction.
Instead, self-publish...!
Self-publishing is now much easier and cheaper than in the past, thanks to the internet and advances in short-run printing technology providing 'print-on-demand'.
I think Allan Levi used Amazon's Kindle Direct self-publishing service:
https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/
Personally, I'm more familiar with Lulu self-publishing through which I have bought a few e-books and printed paper books including one of the excellent Moroccan history books by Comer Plummer (a former Middle East and North Africa Foreign Area Officer in the US Army). This is an excellent, thoroughly researched and clearly referenced history book. It's superior to many books published by 'respectable' academic publishers:
https://www.lulu.com/shop/comer-plummer-iii/roads-to-ruin-the-war-for-morocco-in-the-sixteenth-century/paperback/product-1errpq8p.html?q=&page=1&pageSize=4
These do sound very interesting. I self-published a lot of books in my twenties and am looking to pursue traditional publishing in my thirties. Best of luck with however you choose to proceed.
I am continually shocked that you cannot get an agent. Your growth alone should easily sell them. You are far from alone, of course. But on Substack you kinda lead the pack. What agents think sells usually sell under 5,000 copies so what do they know. They need to take more risks!! But also: You're doin your own thing DIY-style. And you're growing big time, almost 200K on insta and over 11k here. You're already a star ⭐️ 😎
Some sort of a deep algorithmic voodoo magic the up your YouTube channel on to my big screen smart TV screen. Imagine my happy surprise. Now I have more ways to enjoy your wonderful takes.
I would like to just raise my hand that I entered the self-publishing game as a (non-leftist) literary fiction author in 2016. I started out with as much rage against the publishing world as you when I graduated college, but rather than wait for the culture to change, I changed my tactics. I think self-publishing is the way to go and let capitalism, and the individuals in it, spread your books by word of mouth.
I would never describe Kafka as slow, or introspective. Kafka's characters are wonderfully shallow and magnificently baffled. Kafka rages against introspection, which deficit is always used against his protagonists.
For those struggling with Kafka, I suggest working outwards from 'The Burrow', and its ketamine-hole inability to settle on a single decisive thought before another intrudes.
The Brodsky Sisters interests me.
Where is the resolution or the redemption in the lilac room? Looks like a bunch of typical self-centered characters, completely ungodly and lost, stupid people, I hope there’s some kind of red redemption, an awakening, maybe one of them should realize that having biblical principles in life has been the only way we’ve ever seen healthy communities thrive in the history of the world ? People who live outside those principles cause nothing but destruction, divorce, abortion, addiction, greed hatred, jealousy vengeance spitefulness, that’s what liberalism gave us in the 70s, the absence of God in our lives.