I have been trying to figure out why conservative talking heads like Walsh continue to villainize women who'd otherwise be allies simply because they have careers and contribute to their families and societies. Thankfully, you've figured it out for me. Brilliant article! 👏👏
I have been trying to figure out why conservative talking heads like Walsh continue to villainize women who'd otherwise be allies simply because they have careers and contribute to their families and societies. Thankfully, you've figured it out for me. Brilliant article! 👏👏
I was more commenting about the hostility he seems to have when it seems he knows someone who I imagine would be a positive example even if that kind of woman is not what he's interested in. Maybe he meant it more narrowly than it comes off?
In the Catholic circles I know, going to college is generally expected for men and women so I think it is more about working class than Catholic. There's lots of Catholic universities and I don't think there's any difference in men vs women than in other universities.
There may be a bit of a cultural split in that Walsh is coming out of the tradcath culture. If you're a Jewish conservative in the big city there's a lot more leeway (look at all the neocon power couples). But tradcaths are much more influential on the right.
There was just an essay today about Christian guys not really wanting a “Proverbs 31 woman”.
I’d encountered that as well, but had thought it was a fluke. I don’t understand where the guys on the right have come up with their ideology/theology from… even those of us that *want* to have traditional lives, have to work…
Probably the whole redpill thing? I tend to think it's a reaction to the misandric feminism of the 2010s, but then I'm biased. The Internet has led to a whole feedback situation where each side goads each other to greater extremes. I'm not female, but even given my limited imagination I can't see wanting to marry one of these guys... they don't seem like they'd be very nice, and I wouldn't trust someone that narcissistic to run my life. There's a reason Christians would always talk about 'servant leadership' and so on. Besides, isn't the whole idea for Christian women that the guy is moral and upright and works hard for his family and doesn't, you know, sleep around?
But then I refused to do the marriage thing myself, so who am I to talk?
Like they were Redpill to Christian, not Christian first? That would make sense.
The in-person tradcath activists aren’t nearly as obnoxious as the ones online, but there are still some that demand a woman cook for them without being worthy of it.
These past few months have been my first foray into slacktivism, and I’m really shocked by all of it.
Christian women are individuals, just like any other women, and emphasize different virtues when looking for a husband. So some of the Redpill stuff about guys sleeping around isn’t necessarily inaccurate.
I prize valor, cleverness, and perseverance in a man, so I don’t expect chastity… because the higher levels of testosterone a man like that has, makes him more vulnerable to sexual temptation.
The problem is that a lot of these Redpill guys are not warriors, so they can’t expect us to seriously forgive their (in many cases feigned) promiscuity, at the same time they talk like the Virgin Mary isn’t virgin enough for them.
The tradcath thing seems to be newer than redpill, at least on the Internet (obviously some form of it goes back way further), so I'm guessing some fraction of people were first one and then the other.
Most people are less annoying IRL because non-sociopaths will feel bad about hurting you, plus you have social cues. I wouldn't take the Internet that seriously. A lot of people are more successful online than they are IRL. It's fun to talk about stuff you can't find a person in real life to discuss with (or would be fired if you did), but it's a very selected view of humanity and the people who become internet famous are often just as abnormal as the ones who become real famous.
Like, any random woman is expected to cook for them? I only thought that was expected if you were in a relationship. The 'make me a sandwich' is an antifeminist insult. Or not. I don't spend a lot of time with guys like this so I wouldn't know.
Haha, nothing wrong with having standards. ;) I have to say I'm glad I wasn't raised Christian then, given my lack of athleticism and valor I would have just gone incel. (Or more likely become an annoying internet atheist first.) It is interesting to see some confirmation of the old double standard that women don't mind a loose guy if he's high-value enough, however that woman defines it. (Though I assume you expect him to quit after marriage.)
I guess fairness is less of a thing with you guys and it's more about adherence to the gender ideal, but say he had been promiscuous and didn't care if you had been but wanted to settle down?
And, why would I propose to someone I didn't want to marry? Seems kind of cruel.
Don’t have a ton of time to respond. Will write more later. But I have to work with these guys. We live in campaign houses, and 9x out of 10… I end up just doing all the laundry and washing all the dishes. It’s like *Snow White and the 7 Dwarves* non-feminist libertarian edition
My driver in New Hampshire last year, constantly left me behind in neighborhoods, complained every time I asked to be picked up to go to the bathroom… one day I decided to make breakfast for both of us, and suddenly, jerkwad was gone… but I had to cook for him every day for the rest of the campaign. In our professional circle, sexism isn’t a thing, HR is a guy from Mississippi. He’d just laugh if I complained.
But yes, ‘unworthy dude wanting unrelated woman he’s not in a relationship with to cook for him’ is a thing. It’s some kind of power move he can brag about that he got me to be submissive
Oh, you're on the Republican campaign trail? That's a little different I guess. That really does suck. Sure you don't want to switch parties?
Just goes to show you how different life is on the other side of the political divide. I spent most of my career edging away from women in elevators in case one bumped into me, and avoiding romantic relationships at work (which turned into 'avoiding romantic relationships' given my hours).
Wow, they talk about submission more than the kinky people I knew.
Haha, yup, the Republican campaign trail is another world. HR norms are usually based on the social norms of the team… so if you’re with mormons, it’s a problem if you’re not an early bird; however if you’re with a libertarian team, they’ll house everyone in Massachusetts to work in New Hampshire, so that they can smoke pot
The banning of romance at work has been such a tragedy. I can see how that could harm you outside of it… if you train yourself to avoid doing anything flirtatious during work hours, how do you turn it back on afterwards?
HR really has done serious damage in that regard…
To go back to your last comment, if a man had been promiscuous and wanted to settle down, I’d assume at some point he’d end up sleeping with someone else (not in a deliberate way, but in a ‘just happened’ way) and hope that he’d feel comfortable telling me (and be smart enough to not get anyone pregnant)
The big question would be, is this a part of himself he’s working on? Or is he being careless?
If he’s genuine about working on it, then I’m game.
That would make sense. And if you've seriously been in both of those situations you have an interesting memoir to write!
Why serve a party that treats you as an inferior? (This is exactly why I'm not a Democrat!)
And yeah, I think a lot of guys can turn it on and off but I just internalized 'flirting is bad' and had limited ability to turn that off.
I do kind of think a lot of guys want to 'sow their oats' while they can but when actually getting married won't want to blow up their family, especially with the way the courts are. (My dad would tell me about the stuff he did while single but I never saw any evidence he was cheating on my mom, and they're still together after 40+ years!) A guy who's been a virgin into his 20s might be socially inept and not masculine enough to be attractive. Still, that might fit your criteria.
The anthem of wimpy religious guys everywhere! lol
Reminds me of a couple campaigns ago, there was a guy from church that really liked me (lawyer and owned some property) and the guy I was seeing (restaurant manager, prior coastie, lived in an apartment with two roommates) came with our friend group for karaoke…
Cue the passive aggressive comments.
Church guy was comfortable taking verbal shots at a guy 3x his physical strength, and he just sat there politely and took it. I got fed up. The evening peaked when I sang “Irresistible” by Jessica Simpson, and kept looking at my guy, who was basically blushing by the stage.
When we sat back down, church guy goes, “Talk about pearls before swine” starts laughing and took a sip of his beer. Jesus
That’s beautiful about your parents. A lot of older men have told me the same, about them being wild in their youth and then, “only had eyes for my wife”.
Maybe there *is* a magic thing that happens; but men get married later now, and the habits are more ingrained... I’d rather be pleasantly surprised, than set the bar too high, and be devastated
Have your parents given you any pearls of wisdom, for how they’ve been able to maintain their relationship so long?
I have been trying to figure out why conservative talking heads like Walsh continue to villainize women who'd otherwise be allies simply because they have careers and contribute to their families and societies. Thankfully, you've figured it out for me. Brilliant article! 👏👏
Yeah, I was thinking, surely he's met Ben Shapiro's doctor wife, right?
I really think that's a Jewish vs Catholic thing. Heck, Proverbs 31 is from the Old Testament, right?
I was more commenting about the hostility he seems to have when it seems he knows someone who I imagine would be a positive example even if that kind of woman is not what he's interested in. Maybe he meant it more narrowly than it comes off?
Yes, Proverbs 31 is from the Hebrew Bible. It's known as Eishet Chayil. I've not seen the passage used in discussion regarding women working, but rather presented as a way for men to demonstrate appreciation for their wives. https://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/265772/jewish/Eshet-Chayil.htm
In the Catholic circles I know, going to college is generally expected for men and women so I think it is more about working class than Catholic. There's lots of Catholic universities and I don't think there's any difference in men vs women than in other universities.
There may be a bit of a cultural split in that Walsh is coming out of the tradcath culture. If you're a Jewish conservative in the big city there's a lot more leeway (look at all the neocon power couples). But tradcaths are much more influential on the right.
There was just an essay today about Christian guys not really wanting a “Proverbs 31 woman”.
I’d encountered that as well, but had thought it was a fluke. I don’t understand where the guys on the right have come up with their ideology/theology from… even those of us that *want* to have traditional lives, have to work…
The alternative would be, what? OF?
https://open.substack.com/pub/sarahcoppin/p/most-christian-men-do-not-want-a?r=268b51&utm_medium=ios
Probably the whole redpill thing? I tend to think it's a reaction to the misandric feminism of the 2010s, but then I'm biased. The Internet has led to a whole feedback situation where each side goads each other to greater extremes. I'm not female, but even given my limited imagination I can't see wanting to marry one of these guys... they don't seem like they'd be very nice, and I wouldn't trust someone that narcissistic to run my life. There's a reason Christians would always talk about 'servant leadership' and so on. Besides, isn't the whole idea for Christian women that the guy is moral and upright and works hard for his family and doesn't, you know, sleep around?
But then I refused to do the marriage thing myself, so who am I to talk?
Like they were Redpill to Christian, not Christian first? That would make sense.
The in-person tradcath activists aren’t nearly as obnoxious as the ones online, but there are still some that demand a woman cook for them without being worthy of it.
These past few months have been my first foray into slacktivism, and I’m really shocked by all of it.
Christian women are individuals, just like any other women, and emphasize different virtues when looking for a husband. So some of the Redpill stuff about guys sleeping around isn’t necessarily inaccurate.
I prize valor, cleverness, and perseverance in a man, so I don’t expect chastity… because the higher levels of testosterone a man like that has, makes him more vulnerable to sexual temptation.
The problem is that a lot of these Redpill guys are not warriors, so they can’t expect us to seriously forgive their (in many cases feigned) promiscuity, at the same time they talk like the Virgin Mary isn’t virgin enough for them.
Refused, at all? Not even proposed to anyone?!
The tradcath thing seems to be newer than redpill, at least on the Internet (obviously some form of it goes back way further), so I'm guessing some fraction of people were first one and then the other.
Most people are less annoying IRL because non-sociopaths will feel bad about hurting you, plus you have social cues. I wouldn't take the Internet that seriously. A lot of people are more successful online than they are IRL. It's fun to talk about stuff you can't find a person in real life to discuss with (or would be fired if you did), but it's a very selected view of humanity and the people who become internet famous are often just as abnormal as the ones who become real famous.
Like, any random woman is expected to cook for them? I only thought that was expected if you were in a relationship. The 'make me a sandwich' is an antifeminist insult. Or not. I don't spend a lot of time with guys like this so I wouldn't know.
Haha, nothing wrong with having standards. ;) I have to say I'm glad I wasn't raised Christian then, given my lack of athleticism and valor I would have just gone incel. (Or more likely become an annoying internet atheist first.) It is interesting to see some confirmation of the old double standard that women don't mind a loose guy if he's high-value enough, however that woman defines it. (Though I assume you expect him to quit after marriage.)
I guess fairness is less of a thing with you guys and it's more about adherence to the gender ideal, but say he had been promiscuous and didn't care if you had been but wanted to settle down?
And, why would I propose to someone I didn't want to marry? Seems kind of cruel.
Don’t have a ton of time to respond. Will write more later. But I have to work with these guys. We live in campaign houses, and 9x out of 10… I end up just doing all the laundry and washing all the dishes. It’s like *Snow White and the 7 Dwarves* non-feminist libertarian edition
My driver in New Hampshire last year, constantly left me behind in neighborhoods, complained every time I asked to be picked up to go to the bathroom… one day I decided to make breakfast for both of us, and suddenly, jerkwad was gone… but I had to cook for him every day for the rest of the campaign. In our professional circle, sexism isn’t a thing, HR is a guy from Mississippi. He’d just laugh if I complained.
But yes, ‘unworthy dude wanting unrelated woman he’s not in a relationship with to cook for him’ is a thing. It’s some kind of power move he can brag about that he got me to be submissive
Oh, you're on the Republican campaign trail? That's a little different I guess. That really does suck. Sure you don't want to switch parties?
Just goes to show you how different life is on the other side of the political divide. I spent most of my career edging away from women in elevators in case one bumped into me, and avoiding romantic relationships at work (which turned into 'avoiding romantic relationships' given my hours).
Wow, they talk about submission more than the kinky people I knew.
Haha, yup, the Republican campaign trail is another world. HR norms are usually based on the social norms of the team… so if you’re with mormons, it’s a problem if you’re not an early bird; however if you’re with a libertarian team, they’ll house everyone in Massachusetts to work in New Hampshire, so that they can smoke pot
The banning of romance at work has been such a tragedy. I can see how that could harm you outside of it… if you train yourself to avoid doing anything flirtatious during work hours, how do you turn it back on afterwards?
HR really has done serious damage in that regard…
To go back to your last comment, if a man had been promiscuous and wanted to settle down, I’d assume at some point he’d end up sleeping with someone else (not in a deliberate way, but in a ‘just happened’ way) and hope that he’d feel comfortable telling me (and be smart enough to not get anyone pregnant)
The big question would be, is this a part of himself he’s working on? Or is he being careless?
If he’s genuine about working on it, then I’m game.
That would make sense. And if you've seriously been in both of those situations you have an interesting memoir to write!
Why serve a party that treats you as an inferior? (This is exactly why I'm not a Democrat!)
And yeah, I think a lot of guys can turn it on and off but I just internalized 'flirting is bad' and had limited ability to turn that off.
I do kind of think a lot of guys want to 'sow their oats' while they can but when actually getting married won't want to blow up their family, especially with the way the courts are. (My dad would tell me about the stuff he did while single but I never saw any evidence he was cheating on my mom, and they're still together after 40+ years!) A guy who's been a virgin into his 20s might be socially inept and not masculine enough to be attractive. Still, that might fit your criteria.
Tradeoffs...
The anthem of wimpy religious guys everywhere! lol
Reminds me of a couple campaigns ago, there was a guy from church that really liked me (lawyer and owned some property) and the guy I was seeing (restaurant manager, prior coastie, lived in an apartment with two roommates) came with our friend group for karaoke…
Cue the passive aggressive comments.
Church guy was comfortable taking verbal shots at a guy 3x his physical strength, and he just sat there politely and took it. I got fed up. The evening peaked when I sang “Irresistible” by Jessica Simpson, and kept looking at my guy, who was basically blushing by the stage.
When we sat back down, church guy goes, “Talk about pearls before swine” starts laughing and took a sip of his beer. Jesus
That’s beautiful about your parents. A lot of older men have told me the same, about them being wild in their youth and then, “only had eyes for my wife”.
Maybe there *is* a magic thing that happens; but men get married later now, and the habits are more ingrained... I’d rather be pleasantly surprised, than set the bar too high, and be devastated
Have your parents given you any pearls of wisdom, for how they’ve been able to maintain their relationship so long?